Cinquillo clave and the evolution of the manoteo in the bongo

[Fidel]

Note:

Cinquillo clave is not son clave and it is not rumba clave. It is
known as "Cuban clave" on the island.


Here's my take, roughly sketched out.

In terms of heel/toe vs. the manoteo in the martillo I think the
analysis posted in the group left out a critical point.

The development of rumba had everything to do with the dockworkers in
havana playing rhythms on the shipping crates upon which they sat while
they were idle. The informal instruments of these shipping crates
later evolved into the cajon.

This fact about Havana dockworkers playing rumba on makeshift cajons
doesn't necessarily speak to the relationship between the heel/toe on
the conga and the manoteo on the bongo but you have to consider it as
you analyze what is evolving.

Keep in mind that bongo is a finger drum, not a hand drum, and so we
may be discussing concepts simlar to the differential evolution of
birds of prey vs. finches.

That said, we know that the Moroccans and North Africans populated the
Canary Islands (Armando and Lecuona and Cachao are all Canarios) and
thereafter Cuba. So it is highly likely that North African FINGERING
played a decisive role in the development of the bongo manoteo.

Additionally, to broaden the discussion of the relationship between the
heel/toe of the conga and the manoteo on the bongo, you need to
understand that much of the history of the bongo occurred independently
of the conga in eastern Cuba, where the conga played very little role
at all in Cuban popular music.

So much of the analysis of these things currently being performed in
the USA comes from Havanacentric rumberos unfamiliar with decisively
independent Oriente traditions.

Armando and I have both noted the remarkable similarity between
cinquillo clave and the martillo in one direction and the use of wooden
claves in another with the role of the castanets in flamenco.

It's like the wooden sound of the castanet migrated to the wooden sound
of the wooden claves and the cinquillo type rhythm found itself
expressed in cinquillo (Cuban, NOT son or rumba!) clave.

Both of us were fascinated with that idea, which was my original
insight.

Matthew

[Bonestud]

Cinquillo is a one bar pattern. It is no type of clave. Cinquillo is by
definition the "3" side of clave although in some rhythms it is a one
bar ostinato played over a dual sided clave.

I do not understand your term "cinquillo clave" which your whole post
is based on so I'm lost with the rest of it.

[malanga]

On 4/19/05 9:32 PM, in article

Post by Bonestud
Cinquillo is a one bar pattern. It is no type of clave. Cinquillo is by
definition the "3" side of clave although in some rhythms it is a one
bar ostinato played over a dual sided clave.
I do not understand your term "cinquillo clave" which your whole post
is based on so I'm lost with the rest of it.

If I may add...cinquillo is the ostinato of the danzon...ie...cinquillo came
over from Haiti with the French contradanza....it has as much to do with
castanets, flamenco, and the Canary islands... as...as....the Dolby knob on
the "compan~eros" home theatre has to do with Che's asthma?

Hay que reirse, con~o.

[Bonestud]

Cinquillo comes directly from Africa, not Spain or the Canary islands.

Danzon does not use cinquillo, it uses clave. Danzon does not have
cinquillo repeated every bar like you say. It has it in one bar and
straight quarters in another (the 3 and 2 side respectively).

Only rhythms I know that have cinquillo in every bar are Makuta and
Reggaeton. haha.

[malanga]

On 4/20/05 3:25 PM, in article

Post by Bonestud
Cinquillo comes directly from Africa, not Spain or the Canary islands.

Precisely...but as far a Cuba goes, it got there/it became established as a
result of the migration of Haitians following the little upheaval created by
Toussaint L'Overture.

Post by Bonestud
Danzon does not use cinquillo, it uses clave. Danzon does not have
cinquillo repeated every bar like you say. It has it in one bar and
straight quarters in another (the 3 and 2 side respectively).
Only rhythms I know that have cinquillo in every bar are Makuta and
Reggaeton. haha.

From Alejo Carpentier's tome:


The cinquillo is of obvious African origin. It has the rhythmic regularity,
the symmetry of certain percussive rituals of voodoo. Its diffusion and
persistence can be observed in regions of the Americas where blacks were the
majority or a significant part of the population. It accompanied the dance
La resbalosa in Argentina , when it was still a dance of ³blacks and
zambos.² It is a fundamental rhythm in Santo Domingo and Puerto Rico . It is
the basis for the Haitian meringue. The peculiar placement of the two eight
notes on either side of the bar of a measure is found in the rada percussion
of Haiti, and even appears in some of the bata rhythms of Cuba. To sum up,
its inter-American migration follows that of all African-based dances
performed throughout the continent. That it existed in Cuba before the
arrival of the ³French Blacks² is quite likely. But it must have been
confined to the slave barracks, since it passed into salon dancing in the
days of the Haitian immigration. In the neighboring isle, its presence was
so active that it was incorporated into the contradanza. It is interesting
to note that in a contradanza published in late-eighteenth-century Paris ­a
time when Bernard of Saint-Pierre had made the Antilles fashionable­ and
which arrived in Cuba by way of Port-au-Prince with the meaningful title of
La insular, we find the use of an insistent rhythm (foreign to the nature of
the contradanza) inexact and clumsily notated, but with the same placement
of short and long sound values of the cinquillo...

The melodies of the first songs in Creole patois brought by the ³French
Blacks² to Santiago were all constructed on the basis of the cinquillo. The
Tabatié mue tombé, collected by Emilio Bacardi, offers eight bars with
cinquillos out of a total of fourteen. The Cocoye (or Cocuye), a series of
verses of the same origin, so disseminated in Santiago that they grew to be
a kind of national song, turned the cinquillo into a kind of obsession.
Certain passages return to a merely percussive function, which reflects its
more primitive existence...

When it was introduced on the island, it became one with the eastern
contradanza. Dance orchestras took it on to spice up their performances. The
entire Santiago-based repertoire, which included La Santa Tae, La francesita
by Boza, and many other hits of the day, presented the same characteristics.
But ­and this is a curious case­ the cinquillo took more than fifty years to
reach Havana . Manuel Saumell, who knew everything about contradanzas, seems
not to have suspected its existence. The same holds true in the compositions
of his successors of lesser note, such as Tomas Ruiz, Diaz de Comas,
Fernandez de Coca, without forgetting that modest master Lino Martinez. This
shows ­and we will return to this point­ that the modifications of European
genres on the island by African-based rhythms functioned by modalities of
interpretation ­modalities not written down for a period of time, as happens
with certain jazz pianists, but that soon created enduring habits. In the
days when a trip from Havana to Santiago was a fifteen-day adventure (or
more), it was possible for two types of contradanza to coexist: one closer
to the classical pattern, marked by the spirit of the minuet, which later
would be reflected in the danzon, by way of the danza; the other, more
popular, which followed its evolution begun in Haiti, thanks to the presence
of the ³French Blacks² in eastern Cuba. Because, when speaking of the Cuban
contradanza, one must not forget that two parallel and different types
existed during the first half of the nineteenth century: Santiago ¹s and
Havana ¹s. (Almost all contradanzas written in Mexico , for example, were of
the latter type). Only in the last decades of that same century would the
cinquillo reach the capital, feeding into the danzon and the bolero, and
becoming one of the integrative elements of Cuban music.

[Fidel]

Curtis and Malanga-

Retorna is another tune with this figure I refer to. Curtis, this is a
pretty famous tune.

Malanga, care to comment on whether this is the cinquillo you refer to?

matthew

[Bonestud]

Man, Malanga can do a good job copying and pasting. Too bad he can't
tell us what it has to do with anything in his own words.

I would imagine what you mean by cinquillo clave is that it is the same
thing as 3/2 clave, but the 3 side has the cinquillo figure (2 extra
notes compared to a typical 3 side). Correct? I am assuming what you
mean by "cinquillo clave" and I do not deny it's existence. I just am
not sure how the rest of your post fit into that.

[malanga]

On 4/20/05 8:43 PM, in article

Post by Bonestud
Man, Malanga can do a good job copying and pasting. Too bad he can't
tell us what it has to do with anything in his own words.

Ah...yes...that Malanga,,,delusional as he is....seems to have decided that
he can't doesn't couldn't write better on the origins of cinquillo than
Alejo Carpentier. The cut and paste dolt!

Post by Bonestud
I would imagine what you mean by cinquillo clave is that it is the same
thing as 3/2 clave, but the 3 side has the cinquillo figure (2 extra
notes compared to a typical 3 side). Correct? I am assuming what you
mean by "cinquillo clave" and I do not deny it's existence. I just am
not sure how the rest of your post fit into that.

Let me try again....cinquillo was originally a 3+1/64th/2-1/64th castanet
beat invented by the famous castanet virtuoso from the Canary Islands, Che
Guevara (who was accompanied on the flamenco guitar by Raul Castro (all
while Fidel did what he usually did in the Sierra Maestra, sit in his tent
and watch))....it was a glorious triumph of anti-capitalism that could not
have been achieved by the fat bourgeois people of America who are oppressed
and deprived, not being able to live in the socialist paradise of Cuba.
Except, of course, for those salon revolutionaries amongst them, who have
really cool home theatre systems, no neck to speak of, and seemingly ingest
mind-altering substances whose formula the capitalist pig malanga would love
to have for it would make him a very wealthy (or at least a very popular)
man indeed.

There now...does this fit better?

Hay que reirse, con~o.

M.

PS So...did you buy the iPerlana? I heard it's the rage in Santiago!

[Fidel]

Malanga, what about this sentence taken from the piece you posted:

"That it existed in Cuba before the
arrival of the ³French Blacks² is quite likely."

Your thoughts?

thanks,

matthew

[Fidel]

Malanga, the sentence taken from the piece you posted:

"That it existed in Cuba before the
arrival of the ³French Blacks² is quite likely."

seems to be an important sentence.

It seems to be footnoted.

Do you happen to have cites to the footnotes?

Thanks,

Matthew

[Orlando Fiol]

Post by malanga
The cinquillo is of obvious African origin. It has the rhythmic regularity,
the symmetry of certain percussive rituals of voodoo. Its diffusion and
persistence can be observed in regions of the Americas where blacks were the
majority or a significant part of the population. It accompanied the dance
La resbalosa in Argentina , when it was still a dance of ³blacks and
zambos.² It is a fundamental rhythm in Santo Domingo and Puerto Rico . It is
the basis for the Haitian meringue. The peculiar placement of the two eight
notes on either side of the bar of a measure is found in the rada percussion
of Haiti, and even appears in some of the bata rhythms of Cuba.

As a bata player and teacher for fifteen years, I wonder what he means?
Might I have missed something? <grin>

Orlando

[Fidel]

Looks like Malanga has gone missing....

Matthew

Post by Orlando Fiol

Post by malanga
The cinquillo is of obvious African origin. It has the rhythmic regularity,
the symmetry of certain percussive rituals of voodoo. Its diffusion and
persistence can be observed in regions of the Americas where blacks were the
majority or a significant part of the population. It accompanied the dance
La resbalosa in Argentina , when it was still a dance of ³blacks and
zambos.² It is a fundamental rhythm in Santo Domingo and Puerto Rico . It is
the basis for the Haitian meringue. The peculiar placement of the two eight
notes on either side of the bar of a measure is found in the rada percussion
of Haiti, and even appears in some of the bata rhythms of Cuba.

As a bata player and teacher for fifteen years, I wonder what he means?
Might I have missed something? <grin>
Orlando

[Orlando Fiol]

the cinquillo pattern is: x.xx.xx. x.x.x.x.
Another pattern delays the fifth pulse like this: x.xx.x.x x.x.x.x.

Orlando

[Fidel]

Bonestud-

Check out any version of Mujer Perjura for example. Cinquillo clave is
not a one bar pattern.

Malanga, do you have a source for your statement?

Matthew

[Bonestud]

Fidel, that doesn't help me at all. How about explaining to us all what
you mean instead of just referring us to some obscure song none of us
have in our collection.

If by cinquilo clave you mean regular old clave but with cinquillo on
the three side--big whoop. What's so special about that? I don't see
how that has anything to do with the rest of your post?

[Fidel]

That's not an obscure song at all. You turned me on to Eliades after
all. He has recorded it, as has Vieja Trova Santiaguera, Los compadres
and others.

Matthew

[Bonestud]

"That's not an obscure song at all. You turned me on to Eliades after
all. He has recorded it, as has Vieja Trova Santiaguera, Los compadres

and others."


Well then I have it in my collection. But Los Van Van hasn't recorded
it--therefore it is obscure. :)